This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
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Martin Saffer
Aug 3, 2011
7:48 am
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This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
I am told here is a part of the proposed Marcellus legislation being bandied about in Charleston to "protect" us: What a joke! Actually it is a hard insult slap across the face of every citizen in the state who believes that anyone in Charleston is looking out to protect water and health and safety and property. If you are a gas company then Charleston is on your team (the best money can buy). "All local ordinances and enactments purporting to regulate gas operations regulated by this act are hereby preempted and superseded to the extent the ordinances and enactments regulate the method of gas operations." |
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mtnmom
Aug 3, 2011
8:05 am
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
Thank you for clarifying this part of the draft legislation. It makes clear that all West Virginians are of no concern to our legislators who clearly are in Charleston to do the bidding of "gas operators". |
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Joe Ferretti
Aug 3, 2011
10:47 am
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
By and large, this is the same group of people who raised the limits of allowable mercury dumping into our streams because studies revealed that West Virginians don't eat a lot of fish. |
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freeholder
Aug 3, 2011
6:59 pm
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
What is the next step? Recall elections? |
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RML
Aug 4, 2011
3:59 pm
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
I love the recall idea... Another unwelcome section of the 73-page draft law (section 22-6A-14 (c) (4) deals with "presumption of liability". It would allow someone with a water to sue in civil courts for "contamination or deprivation of a fresh water source or supply within one thousand feet of the site of drilling for a horizontal well." Under this rule, the court would 'presumes' the drilling operation to be liable for such contamination unless proven otherwise. However (there’s always the fine print) the draft includes all sorts of escape routes for industry, including if "the pollution occurred more than six months after completion of drilling or alteration activities." Background information: Laboratory tests of 150 wells in Pennsylvania have shown that many of those located near deep gas wells have already been contaminated by methane whose chemical 'signature' proves that it comes from deep deposits. No such contamination was found in water wells that are not near deep gas wells. Contamination can happen any time after the deep gas well is drilled. It can take years for methane to seep into shallow sources of drinking water. And it can take years to migrate to more distant water wells. By trying to limit the industry’s liability to six months would give the industry yet another 'get out of jail free' card. A far more just and reasonable 'presumption of liability' would be the following: if there's deep hydrocarbon contamination of a water well, it's caused by the nearest deep gas well. Period. Simple. No time limit. Such contamination doesn’t happen naturally. It should be up to the gas company to prove that their well was not the cause of the problem, not up to water user to prove the opposite. This can be illustrated by a down-home example: Let's say my Uncle Ferg passes away and I'm too cheap to pay for a funeral. It’s early October and you’re not using your farm well, so I dump Uncle Ferg down your well. Out of sight, out of mind. Six months and one day later, in early April, you discover my rotten relative when you turn on the tap to water your garden and livestock. It's obvious that the body is my Uncle Ferg and that there’s no way he could get into your well without my help. According to the draft legislation cited above, because it took six months for the problem to show up you’ll need to spend a fortune on investigators, lab tests, lawyers, etc., in order to prove who’s down your well and how he got there. Otherwise I don’t owe you a cent. Shouldn't the evidence -- the Uncle Ferg’s 'fingerprint' -- be enough for the civil courts to 'presume' that whoever was responsible for giving him a nice burial dumped him down your well instead? The gas industry, like the tobacco industry before it, has unlimited resources to fight any liability suit with the enthusiasm of a rabid wolverine. It is likely that they will never be held responsible for the contamination they cause until, as with the tobacco industry, folks are dropping like flies. Even then, it will be the government, not the victims, that ends up collecting the fine. This is an excellent lesson in how industry lobbyists write the rules meant to regulate the industry itself. There seems to be nobody representing the public interest who is reviewing these laws in the detail necessary to discover the little pro-industry gems hidden deep under a pile of words... -- Rich |
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Joe Ferretti
Aug 4, 2011
4:32 pm
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
Can we demand of our legislators that they articulate some rational basis for the 6 month "window" they allow for filing civil suits against drillers for contamination? Where is the science or studies that indicate contamination is likely to occur within the first 6 months after drilling ceases? Why 6 months and not 8, 12 or 24? West Virginia law and statutes of limitations generally allow two years for someone to bring suit after suffering harm. We have a discovery rule also, meaning that if the harm is of a nature that it might not readily be discovered within the two year period, (think medical instrument left inside you after a surgery) one can bring suit within two years of the discovery of harm. The "statute of repose" in WV counteracts by limiting all civil suits to a ten year statute of limitation, regardless of the date of discovery. The six month limitations period is a cruel joke and runs counter to every reasonable limitations period currently in the law. Its only rationale is to protect the industry as one can easily imagine that even if harm is evident immediately after drilling ceases, it may take months to obtain the testing results necessary to prove the causal connection between drilling and foul water. I heard an industry hack on statewide radio today arguing against the Mayor of Morgantown, who hopelessly tries to stop drilling within city limits. The hack asked, [w]here are all these lakes on fire and spigots spewing gas?" I think it will be necessary to start documenting the problems and shoving the evidence under the noses of the legislators before we can ever expect some meaningful public protections. Just like the WV governor who was made an alcoholic and driven out of office by the coal barons because he had the guts to seek the state's first severence tax, our current government leaders will get drunk on campaign cash and will cower from theats of primary and general election challenges by doing the bidding of Chesapeake Energy, et al. |
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JIM
Aug 4, 2011
10:23 pm
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
Given the global economic climate, I would assume a more balanced approach may be in everyone's best interest. |
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freeholder
Aug 6, 2011
4:45 pm
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
"more balanced approach".Let everything alone,do not worry about cancer, lung disease, cataracts,no drinkable water , let the coal and gas barons make their poorly taxed profits,let the peons shut up .Right JIM? Pokey people should thank Martin and Joe for their wisdom and bravery in tellimg us the other side.Unfairly, though, they will get no more thanks than the governor who got a severance tax passed.We can barely remember his name----Marland , I think it was. |
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Joe Ferretti
Aug 6, 2011
6:52 pm
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
Jim I never said don't mine coal. I come from generations of coal miners. I just want extraction to be done with adequate protections for our other resources like water, air and land. I also want the coal companies to compensate the state for ruining roads streams and flood control. Most importantly, I want legislators to represent the people not just campaign contributors. |
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JIM
Aug 6, 2011
10:14 pm
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
Joe, my comment was a little tongue in cheek, please don't be offended by my smart a comments. Unfortunately politicians are slaves to the money just as we are. We expect our managed portfolios, our retirement plans to perform, and our investments to perform. All of these in funds or companies are demanded to perform, therefore environmental concerns are not high on their list, but profits are. Joe and Martin are both attorneys, they work for fees, they do their clients bidding. We can say that good environmental practices pay but certainly not immediately and we as a society are all about immediate gratification. |
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Martin Saffer
Aug 7, 2011
5:24 am
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
Gentlemen, may I suggest again that the notion that the dividing line is simply between "clean environment and economic prosperity" unduly limits the equation and limits the the question. Here is how I see it. Since 1950 the world population has doubled and accordingly the demands on resources have doubled or even tripled due to the thirst of consumption and the speed of production. Of course, what we forget in our short term vision is that resources are finite and do not increase with demand but decrease actually. Back in the 50/s education was largely about learning and developing a body of knowledge to help you view the world and your life in it; now education is about job training and business skills. President Eisenhower said that we could not have both guns and butter but we didn't listen and bought both on Wall Street slight of hand, credit cards and, worst of all, a national debt that goes to Jupiter. We are in a society riddled with drugs and employ an extravagant number of citizens "fighting" this problem while we pay folks on assistance but don't even ask them not to use drugs. Our level of job reliance (showing up for work on time etc) is low, our work ethic is low, our psychology is aim at goals which are not further away than a minute or two. And because of the explosion of technology, we have been mesmerized into believing that "cyberspace" is where we live not earth. We are inextricably bound to the natural world but view it as separate from us and deny our absolute dependance on it. So the long and short of what I'm saying is simply there is one of a heck more to this than thinking gas wells are going to solve the economic day for us. The mess we are in is immense and begging the question between two alternatives allows the foot of big gas money to tilt the outcome. |
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freeholder
Aug 7, 2011
11:28 pm
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
JIM,please accept my apology for the mini rant :I was perhaps under the influence of Harshbargers "Hawks Nest" or "The Last Mountain' ,Blair Mountain development when I sounded forth' When readding this list,it is extremely hard to see how moderation will even survive as a talking point where coal is king where labor and humanity itself is so badly treated. |
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RML
Aug 8, 2011
8:53 am
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
The idea that we must make a choice between a clean environment or economic growth is false. Regulation creates jobs, it does not destroy them. Regulation creates jobs, it does not destroy them. For example, the Japanese car industry won the world market because their regulations were so restrictive. Likewise with the US drug industry. The same was once true of US food exports. The Netherlands passed regulations requiring the use of 'green' energy and now their multi-billion-dollar wind industry dominates the world market. Polluting the environment is bad economics. Protecting the environment is good for the economy. In West Virginia alone, Federal coal mining regulations have created thousands of jobs in this state reclaiming mined lands. The problem with shale gas is that groundwater contamination must be stopped before it happens. Once the groundwater is poisoned it is hopelessly expensive to clean up. -- Rich |
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freeholder
Aug 8, 2011
7:47 pm
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Re: This is the non-leadership you can expect from Charleston
How do we send the above post, with our agreement with it to Sen.Rockefeller,house of Delegates, governor ? We can repeat it weekly. |