So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
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Ruth Bland
Sep 4, 2011
10:27 am
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So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research-innovations/blogs/japanese-breakthrough-will-make-wind-power-cheaper-than-nuclea?hpt=hp_bn11 |
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RML
Sep 4, 2011
12:37 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
This is a subject area where I have personal experience. For 15 years we've lived off the grid and generated our own electricity. We own three small windmills and a dozen solar panels. At no time have more than two of the windmills worked. At present all of them are broken. For us, wind energy has been a very costly mistake. On the other hand, our solar panels have been 100 percent reliable and produce electricity even on cloudy days. Large-scale wind power plants will always be more expensive than any other power source for one simple reason: wind is unreliable. The instant the wind fails, each and every wind turbine must be backed up by an additional coal, gas or nuclear power plant all powered up and ready to go. That wastes a lot of fuel. When we build industrial wind power plants we pay for them four times. First, we pay for the turbines themselves which are almost totally subsidized by our tax dollars. Second, we pay for another traditional (coal, gas or nuclear) plant to supply power when the wind quits. Third, we pay higher electric rates for the new power lines and substations to ship wind energy to Maryland and other states. Fourth, we pay higher taxes and fees when states force universities and industries to buy high-priced 'renewable' power. As for being 'green', on a per-watt basis industrial wind energy does more harm to the environment than any other source of power. It requires about 1,000 huge wind turbines to produce the same amount of power as one nuclear plant. The turbines must be at least 1,000 feet apart. That's 200 miles of turbines on our ridges -- to do what? To generate less useful power than one nuclear plant which could be built next to an existing plant? When the wind is not blowing, it doesn't matter how many turbines we build, we get no electricity. As for reducing America's 'carbon footprint,' despite all the money that has been spent on industrial wind power in the US, there is not one study proving that it has reduced carbon emissions. It is unfortunate that people who care about the environment have been convinced that wind energy is good for the environment. No other energy source disrupts more land, ruins more views, or kills more eagles and bats than the wind industry. Our investment in huge wind turbines is the worst thing we can do to our environment and to our economy. -- Rich |
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Ruth Bland
Sep 4, 2011
3:52 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
And so is coal and Marcellus Shale. So of the three evils, which is the better? And solar panels contain many harmful components. Never an easy answer but an alternative energy source is needed! |
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Martin Saffer
Sep 5, 2011
6:03 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Why do we have to entertain any of these choices when we already have what we and America need....farms and good water. |
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Ruth Bland
Sep 5, 2011
8:35 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Maybe it should be the lesser of 7 evils (oil, coal, natural gas, wind, nuclear, ethanol, solar). I added ethanol because many out there are not happy about the encroachment on the food chain. Martin, what energies are you producing on your farm to sustain your electric and heat? My family heats with wood, which is abundant on our properties, but it doesn't keep the lights on or the refrigerator running. My point is that a compromise is going to have to happen to appease demand, but should be decided with the least destruction to the environment. Not an easy answer again. I really can't pick and choose which one as all of the above is very expensive. But to vehemently deny all is not using the best judgment. We don't have to surrender but we do want to live in the comforts that we want our families to have and which they deserve. |
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JIM
Sep 5, 2011
5:38 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Ruth |
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Ruth Bland
Sep 5, 2011
5:47 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Thanks Jim. If I had piles of money, solar and wind would power the Bland ranch, but alas, no such riches! |
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RML
Sep 5, 2011
6:22 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Solar panels have a useful life of 20 years or more and do not produce harmful emissions. What is the cheapest source of electricity? Conservation. The cheapest, 'greenest' electricity is electricity that is not used. Americans waste -- totally waste -- half of the electricity we produce. Conservation alone can meet America's growth in electricity demand for two decades or more. After conservation, what source of electricity does the least environmental damage? Nuclear power. Nothing else comes close. Unfortunately, the media and eco-hysterics have folks believing that nuclear power is a threat to people and the environment. More than a half century of experience with nuclear power proves such fears to be irrational. -- Rich |
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Ruth Bland
Sep 5, 2011
6:35 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Not talking about emissions, talking about the stuff inside. But, I have to agree conservation will pay off, and yes the media, THE MEDIA, has caused so many problems with just not energy, but with everything! Things may be difficult and bad, but not as bad as the media portrays it to be. Can't believe everything in print and on the news! |
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Martin Saffer
Sep 6, 2011
5:26 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Ruth I heat with wood. I raise a large garden and put most of it up. I raise steers and lambs. So I am relatively self sufficient. In a complex society, we specialize and no one does everything; even doctors don/t treat themselves. So in the energy debate, I don/t worry I am not drilling or winding etc when I and the county are producing other needed services and commodities. In a very short time from now, if we stay smart, water will be worth more than gas. |
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Ruth Bland
Sep 6, 2011
6:16 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Same here Martin. Big, big garden and I have spent my weekends canning and my vacation from work freezing and drying vegetables. Grapes are next on the list! We have our own pork and beef. Raise chickens too. I agree with the water issue, but I still need electricity to pump it out of my well. Not fortunate enough to have a gravity fed system. Still need the electric to freeze my food, can my tomatoes, and butcher my beef and pork. Although we are extremely self sufficient, we still need energy. Even with this storm, and I've experienced the '85 and '96 floods, we have gas in store for our generators. Not for TV, or computer when the power goes out, but for the freezers and water. Can't live without it (water) and we can't ignore it, but electric is dictated by coal or water or nuclear power. I don't think we can sit back and say, "We are fine, leave us alone." Responsible energy usage and production effects us all. |
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JIM
Sep 6, 2011
8:25 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Exactly, Pocahontas is not an island. Speaking of tourism, could Snowshoe operate without power? |
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Higher Ground
Sep 6, 2011
9:57 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
West Virginia has done it’s share on the energy production front. Nobody can say it hasn’t. We’ve ruined our streams with silt and effluents from surface mining and acid mine drainage. We’ve scarred our landscape with left over highwalls and gob piles. Overloaded coal trucks terrorize our highways. Massive new drilling for natural gas has made life unlivable for residents of north central West Virginia. We’ve done enough. Ask the grieving families at Upper Big Branch, Farmington, Sego, Aracoma, and Buffalo Creek. Ask the thousands who have become crippled from roof falls and crushing injuries. Ask the thousands who have lived with black lung. We haven’t gotten much in return. Go to the areas that have the heaviest extraction. Poverty and ugliness goes with heavy extraction. Go to Logan, McDowell or Wyoming county. Our state and local governments have long been corrupted by coal money, now gas money. Do we have to generate more energy for the sake of America? We’ve already ruined our southwestern counties by mountaintop removal. Do we have to sacrifice our lovely eastern mountains to these monstrous ugly machines? Do we have to ruin our views, lower our property values, and give up our tourism industry so that West Virginia can do more to solve America’s energy problem? |
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RML
Sep 6, 2011
10:26 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
If everyone were as conservative in their use of energy as are most local residents; the nation would have energy to spare. If ripping up our land and selling off our resources at fire-sale prices were sound economic policy; West Virginians would be the wealthiest people in the nation. If West Virginia raised its 5% severance tax on fossil fuels to the 37% charged by some other states; the state could end all sales taxes and cut income taxes by half. What better way to attract new businesses and create good jobs? The time to demand that our elected state officials do right by us is right now. -- Rich |
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Ruth Bland
Sep 7, 2011
7:13 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Folks, it is not that I disagree with what you are saying, because the devastation that the mining has caused and the price that West Virginians have paid is so very sad. And, the lack of a competitive severance tax is quite irresponsible on the part of our legislators. But, my point is this, I want to preserve the beautiful environment that I enjoy in Pocahontas County, but my quality of life is dependent upon a number of different energy sources. I still need them even though I don't necessarily want them to set up shop in Pocahontas County. So...do I continue to accept higher fuel prices and higher prices for electrical services or do I join in on the planning with the hopes that good community decisions will assist all residents with fueling their vehicles and warming their homes? I'm not supportive of "opening the gates and let the fracking begin" but I'm also not a radical environmentalist. So is there any one out there that understands my hesitancy about both points of view? |
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Martin Saffer
Sep 8, 2011
5:37 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
No frankly Ruth I don't. This county has much to offer as it is. We do not have to have gas drilling because we use electricity or drive cars. We use steel knives and plows, do we need a foundry to justify our use? We use energy as does everyone else but not everyone produces it especially at the cost of other equally valuable services and commodities they produce. Our pure water, our farm produce, our safe haven environment is a priceless renewing energy depot for the ravaged and parched spirits coming to us from areas ruined by crowding, heavy industry, pollution; places where the water is not fit to drink and the air rank and odious. Our pure fuel also gives our lives a very special meaning and we should be darn careful not to throw it away. You are going to pay higher fuel prices if this county gets ruined or not. The profits from oil and gas are astronomical; just ask your neighbor Senator Rockefeller. Don't delude your self into thinking that all of a sudden when you can't take a drink from your kitchen tap that your sacrifice and the sacrifice you made for children yet unborn is going to do a darn thing except make people in texas and wall street and the middle east richer for longer. The Roman empire used slaves as their energy source to build their great cities and roads, we use oil and diesel....let us not become slaves to that. |
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Martin Saffer
Sep 8, 2011
5:59 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
I believe the best way to anyone's future is to develop education. Education is the key to success in life. It requires hard work and does not come quickly but once achieved it lasts a lifetime. As a community we must stop looking for quick easy answers. Gas drilling is painted as a "quick rich" solution. It is not. Hard work and a healthy life are worth far more. |
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Higher Ground
Sep 8, 2011
9:00 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
When the loggers came through Pocahontas County they cut everything. The county was denuded of its trees, leaving only brush and timber waste. Then it caught fire and the fires burned everything, down to and including the roots. A lot of the topsoil ran off, and we didn’t have much to start with on the ridges. When the logging started there was some quick money. There were some clapboard houses put up. Some people got jobs in the timber. But it was all soon gone, leaving devastation. It’s taken the better part of a century for the trees to come back. Louise McNeill, who lived through it, depicts it accurately, I think in Milkweed Ladies. You don’t have to be a Luddite to see the parallels that we face now from gas drilling and wind power. I can’t resist quoting another great American poet: “And here I sit so patiently, Bob Dylan, |
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Martin Saffer
Sep 8, 2011
9:16 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Oh my! Bob Dylan so hits the nail on the head. The price you pay is double the second time and worse because you knew better but lied to yourself and denied the consequences. And unlike the timber which grew back, I do not believe there can ever be a recovery from an onslaught of drilling. |
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RML
Sep 8, 2011
9:45 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
"Taxation without Representation is Tyranny" was the rallying cry of the first American Revolution. As it was in 1776, the interests of the people are no longer represented in the halls of political power. Especially in this state, only huge corporations and deep-pocket contributors have the right -- and power -- to be heard. Neither Tomblin nor Maloney show any awareness of, or concern for, the public interest. The current gang of state politicians are fully occupied doing favors for themselves and their friends. We, the people, are like dust on their custom-made Italian leather shoes. The old, sold-out faces who have conned their way into power should fade away. It’s time for a new group of representatives in Charleston. People whose loyalty is to fellow West Virginians rather than to outside corporations. Check out the Mountain Party (www.mtparty.org.) As Jefferson wrote, “Every generation needs a new revolution.” Our time has come. -- Rich |
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JIM
Sep 8, 2011
8:46 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Ruth I understand exactly what you are saying. I want the gas but I don't want to ruin the water. There are two sides to every thing and somewhere in middle is the truth. |
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Martin Saffer
Sep 9, 2011
4:30 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
There are just some things that can't be done neatly. "Surgical" bombing always seems to kill more people than intended, timber cutting does require logging roads, reclaimed strip mining sites are not the same as the land was before the mining no matter how much green grass is sprayed on top of the no longer "top soil", and a gas well is going to leave behind pipe lines, roads, storage tanks and undeniable changes. As to the water, the two million gallons per well of hazardous waste which before was your pure water, well its got to go somewhere and all choices and all handling of it represent huge potential dangers to our drinking water. The corporations and drillers are not your neighbors, not your community. The consequence of an accident is "fixed" with a check for a while and maybe a huge plastic water container next to your house in the yard. And then they are gone and.....soon you will be gone. Is this a chance you want to take? |
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Ruth Bland
Sep 9, 2011
7:03 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Martin, I really think that you need to try and understand my position. My vote helped elect you. There are more of us out there that do not possess the same views as you and we are your constituents. We cannot always believe that change will never occur and we have to keep the entire picture in mind when our county is faced with controversial issues. I asked in a previous post about how many landowners have sold their mineral rights and how many drillers are present now in Pocahontas County. No answer. I need to know what we are dealing with now. |
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freeholder
Sep 10, 2011
12:00 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
I doubt that anyone knows how many drillers are present in the county because they do not go to the courthouse and register but you can bet that they abound if there is as much gas as is reported. Sale of mineral rights seems like it would be a public matter available to all. Our county paper should take up the issue and report the information. |
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Martin Saffer
Sep 10, 2011
3:19 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Ruth, I thank you for your support in the past. On this issue I must remain true to my belief that counting a blessing is better than not. I and many others feel that Pocahontas County is a real richness in our lives; I think you must agree with that. I went to the Court House and looked at some leases. They are all on record. Many large land owners have leased, some did not. I think there is a sharp divide between folks who did and did not on this. I have not determined the total amount of acreage leased. None do I think realized the consequences those leases were inviting in the social costs and environmental impacts of drilling. It takes 640 acres to make a drilling pool for one 5-8 acre pad for up to 6-8 initial wells so they are the obvious candidates and they will, if drilling comes, make the real money. I'd love for you and everyone else to travel with us to Wetzel County this Thursday to see and smell progress and "riches" first hand. If you feel we need change in the County to succeed than continue to join with me in the hard work of changing and raising the bar of education and training; continue to fight drug addiction and change the hopes and souls of those crippled by drugs and alcohol and change the future of children who are lost in those families; change the spirit from "we are stuck" to "we are just getting started"; change buying habits to local foods; change lagging internet service to the speed driven highway that it must be for us to thrive. No Marcellus drillers are in the County to my understanding. It costs millions to drill a single well and it also must have an economy of scale in a supportive infrastructure of roads, supplies, pipe lines etc and of course water. If I run for reelection, I think my candidacy will represent a clear choice on this most serious of all issues. |
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Martin Saffer
Sep 11, 2011
6:12 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Ruth here are some rough numbers from an SEC filing: FORM 10-K Annual report pursuant to section 13 or 15(d) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 For the Fiscal Year Ended December 31, 2010 Transition report pursuant to section 13 or 15(d) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 GASTAR EXPLORATION LTD. Alberta, Canada 98-0570897 331 Lamar Street, Suite 1080 Houston, Texas (713) 739-1800 (Registrant’s telephone number, including area code) In December 2010, we completed the Marcellus Acquisition for $28.9 million. The acquisition consisted of approximately 62,000 net acres of leasehold in the Marcellus Shale concentrated in Preston, Tucker, Pocahontas, Randolph and Pendleton Counties, West Virginia, including a gathering system comprised of 41 miles of four and six inch steel pipeline, a salt water disposal well, and five conventional wells producing approximately 500 Mcf per day (gross) of natural gas. Read more: http://www.faqs.org/sec-filings/110310/GASTAR-EXPLORATION-LTD_10-K/#ixzz1XdY2XTn3 |
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Martin Saffer
Sep 11, 2011
6:38 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
According to the on-line WV Geological Survey Map there is one permit for a Marcellus well in northern Pocahontas at the Pendleton line. http://ims.wvgs.wvnet.edu/mar2/viewer.htm |
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Ruth Bland
Sep 11, 2011
8:14 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Thank you, now I have an idea of what we are facing. I am concerned how a balanced approach to the rights of the property owners versus the magnitude of Marcellus Shale drilling will play out. This is especially pertinent since your and Mr. Fleming's election platforms were focused on the rights of the property owners. Difficult decision lie ahead. But I have a bit of an issue with a previous post - you have asked me to join you in education, prevention, technology activities to improve the county. Well, after 27 years as an educator who has spent countless hours working for the children of Pocahontas County, chaperoned hundreds of dances, took over 30 out of state field trips, supervised hundreds of basketball games (spent 11 hours yesterday at PCHS volunteering my time to the girls volleyball team), attended lots of PTO/LSIC meetings, brought tons of prevention programs to the school, have served the county school system as the Technology Coordinator, and have now expanded my mission to a countywide focus, you're asking me to join you in education, technology, and prevention activities? Seriously, you are asking me to join you? I can count few activities that you have attended regarding the issues of education, prevention, and technology within my arena of service. You need a bit of a reality check. I think you better be joining me and rest of the community who are doing what you are espousing is not happening. The arrogant and narrow minded tone of your message is insulting to me and to many of my colleagues, neighbors, and friends who are working hard for our children and community. I thank you for the engaging conversation, but I realize that you are not interested in a balanced, community wide approach to the many, many issues that your constituents are facing. You are living in a microcosm. Don't count on my vote the next time. |
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Martin Saffer
Sep 11, 2011
5:04 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Ruth, the election is a way off yet and there will be many issues that are advanced by then. I certainly did not intent to imply that your arena was not being worked as hard as possible by you and others; my point was that these areas are the way forward as I see them. As a Commissioner, I introduced and helped to establish the One Room University, I also helped to start Community Corrections. I initiated drug testing at the Court House. I have persuaded the Commission to fully fund, as much as is reasonable, our libraries and agencies dealing with families. I helped to establish the nursing program initiative. I serve as Guardian-ad-Litem as advocate for children in almost every abuse and neglect case that occurs in Circuit Court. I support the FFA and 4H sales. My wife is a nurse at PMH and is Acute Care Coordinator. So I and my wife too, like you, am engaged in this ongoing effort to help our citizens achieve a better life. So when I asked you to "join me" I simply meant that these areas are the way forward. If you will reread my remarks I said "If you feel we need change in the County to succeed then continue to join with me in the hard work of changing and raising the bar of education and training". The operative word there was "Continue". Thanks for the dialogue. Oh as to property rights which I support it also implies to me a "Right Use of Property". |
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normanalderman
Sep 11, 2011
9:23 pm
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
Well said, Ruth! |
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JIM
Sep 16, 2011
11:12 am
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Re: So What is the Least Costly Power? Good Article...
And how has all of this created jobs or living wage. Quanitative answer please! Don't count on my vote either unless there are some hard numbers. |