Martin V. Saffer, Pocahontas County Commissioner
 
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Gambling at the Greenbrier

Author Message
Martin Saffer
Apr 11, 2009
2:44 pm
Gambling at the Greenbrier

In the evening session of the Senate, members passed a bill that will bring gaming to the historic Greenbrier Resort. Senate Bill 575 authorizes table games, slot machines, video lottery machines and certain games of chance to be permitted for participation by guests at The Greenbrier Resort. The bill sets the same standards for games at the Greenbrier that are already in affect at other gambling establishments in West Virginia.

What is your feeling about gambling and its pros and cons. I personally feel it is a huge mistake. It represents the lowest form of monetary gain in that success is dependent on chance only and not on hard work. Gambling brings crime and it brings losers (more than winners).

JIm
Apr 11, 2009
4:29 pm
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

I believe the Senate had a knee jerk reaction to the Greenbrier's impending Bankruptcy.
We are selling out good values for the potential of promised revenues. This may be a result of the other Golden Rule. Those that own the gold, RULE!

Linda gibb
Apr 11, 2009
10:37 pm
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

What is going on down in Charleston?
Have they lost all their good sense?
They need to take a look at what gambling did to Atlantic city.

Allen Johnson
Apr 30, 2009
12:00 pm
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

I oppose ALL forms of state gambling on several grounds. (there will be some redundancy) This includes lotteries (maybe especially lotteries since their major customers are moderate to low income people...but that for later).

  1. The state represents the common good, and should strive to set a high standard. The state has a responsibility to protect its citizens and to draw out from them a high standard of citizenship. Gambling legislation is primarily to raise tax revenue (and in the case of the Greenbrier, to also stimulate income for a particular business entity).
  2. When the state develops a vested interest in gambling income in lieu of normal tax sources, then it develops a corresponding interest in spurring increased gambling. That is, the more folks gamble, the more revenue. So rather than protecting citizens by protecting them from unwise spending choices (for the odds are always strongly against gamblers in these things), the state promotes, advertises, and tempts its citizens to gamble. (I'm speaking here of lotteries)
  3. Our society values people by how much money they have. Money is power, prestige, and self-worth. I believe this is a counterfeit value system, but nonetheless this is what our society pushes. So some poor schmuck stuck in a low end job dreams of being "a somebody." He or she fantasizes, "Oh, if only I had a million dollars, this is what I would do, and be." So the lottery or other gambling seems to be the only way to this dream. Holding a ticket (or a gob of tickets) makes their day manageable, their situation bearable, for that night the winning numbers will be announced...
  4. But countless low income people waste money on gambling. Some become addicted and get egregiously in debt, even contributing to family and marriage ruin, and in some cases, resorting to theft. This addiction includes casino gambling. One of the major customers of many casinos (such as the offshore boats) are elderly people on fixed incomes. Sometimes they are bussed in.
  5. The counter argument arises, "But people are going to gamble anyway. Might as well let the state regulate it and profit from it." I still have to counter that the state should not be making money off vice, for it then becomes tempting to the state to induce folks to gamble rather than protecting them from overindulgence. I will go further to say that I feel the same way with alcohol (Manchin is trying to get Sunday sales and more outlets in WV), and would say the same thing with harmful drugs and prostitution (which maybe should be decriminalized but certainly not have the state start profiting from them).
  6. The state uses gambling revenue to supplant increased taxation. As many have observed, gambling might be a luxury for the rich but it is a tax upon the poor. So then should the state supplant gambling revenue with increased taxation? My answer is "absolutely yes." First, the state should tax equal to its expenditures. Deficit spending for the purpose of keeping taxes low is intergenerational theft, actually a form of a Ponzi scam, for the folks who get on board last (future generations) will lose.
  7. But one last point on taxes. I believe in lowering or abolishing taxes on productive work and maybe even spending (income and sales taxes), and "tax shifting" this to pollution and non-renewable resources, all of which tend to get tax breaks as well as their true costs being externalized on the public. So maybe gasoline should cost $10 a gallon, that is, a high carbon tax. Electricity should be much much higher since coal is such an egregious polluter from the time it's mined to its burning. But such high taxes would spur a major societal shift toward renewable energy and conservation of resources, a good thing. And with lowered or abolished taxes on income and spending, many citizens might not see much difference in their total tax bill. (I realize I have given an incomplete analysis in such a short space).
  8. Anyway, I oppose gambling on the above grounds. I could add further, such as religious reasons, but in a pluralistic society it is important to state reasons that fit the pluralism for the common good.

-Allen Johnson

JIm
Apr 30, 2009
7:40 pm
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

Well said, Allen.

Martin Saffer
May 1, 2009
9:12 am
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

I agree Allen. Ultimately these issues boil down to several human frailties: the desire to get something for nothing and failure to count one's blessings.

Bill
Oct 19, 2009
1:38 pm
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

It's my understanding that gambling at the Greenbriar will only be available to guests at the hotel. If that is the case I don't understand how anyone can object.
Bill

Martin Saffer
Oct 20, 2009
8:25 am
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

So is the innuendo of your remark to the effect that if only the rich gamble it can't hurt? What about the climate it will create in the surrounding community and the smaller gambling establishments that will follow to ensnare the "not so rich and famous".

Bill
Oct 20, 2009
8:48 am
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

You can't legislate morality. It's been tried and doesn't work. What I said was if gambling is restricted to guests at The Greenbriar there will be no other gambling establishments. The effect will be more guests at The Greenbriar spending more money and thus increasing tax revenue for the area.

Bill
Oct 20, 2009
4:19 pm
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating gambling. Far from it. It's for chumps. I remember Atlantic City before the casinos moved in. By the late 60's it was really a slummy place. Now it's a slummy place with casinos. I'm sure the casinos are generating tax revenue. But it didn't come to Atlantic City. On the other hand, gambling at The Greenbrier will never approach the scale of Atlantic City. Still, there will probably be a few additional jobs and that's a good thing.

David Fleming
Oct 20, 2009
11:34 pm
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

I recall when I heard that gambling at The Greenbrier was being considered. I thought it a bad idea, in poor taste, etc. But now that we understand it is just for the guests, I must admit I find it more palatable. Which, it seems, implies that I thought the original plan was to provide gambling to the public at large - that is what I wasn't too thrilled about. Yet strangely, I cannot rationalize for myself why the gambling only being for guests is really any different. So I kind of get Bill's 10/19 1:38pm comment, but I'm not sure why.

I'm not a gambler myself; never play the lottery for example. I think I just feel that people spend too much on the lottery, and by extension I have a negative view of gambling.

But I suppose the fact that The Greenbrier has gambling is something that I can get over fairly quickly. In fact, I think I'm over it. :-)

DF

Martin Saffer
Oct 21, 2009
5:30 am
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

Commissioner, what will be your answer when and if the question becomes "Gambling at Snowshoe"?

JIm
Oct 21, 2009
7:18 am
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

Martin

You oppose Wind power, gambling and coal mining, when the tax revenues that are derived from these are removed, how would you fund the short fall?

Martin Saffer
Oct 21, 2009
8:02 am
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

If our tax revenue depends on gambling, then I say government has not done its job.

Bill
Oct 21, 2009
8:20 am
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

I oppose coal because it's dirty and, especially the brown coal burned in China, is really degrading our environment. But, until there is a cheaper alternative coal's widespread use will continue. I don't oppose wind power. What I object to is placing windmill farms in places they don't belong for a variety of reasons. For instance: you wouldn't surround the Gettysburg Battlefield with them. Or on The Mall in Washington. And, as a homeowner I shouldn't have to look at them If I don't want to. Many residents of Pocahontas County have wonderful scenic views from their houses. Suppose you're one of those people and one day giant windmills began to appear in front of your home. The value of your quality of life frequently isn't a factor in deciding where to locate windmill farms or power plants or Walmarts.
Bill

Martin Saffer
Oct 21, 2009
8:55 am
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

Bill, it can be if a community decides that is what it wants. The idea that someone other than ourselves has the power to plunk down in our midst things we don't want is nonsense. We citizens can have as much power over our destiny as we give ourselves. It takes work and communication and the fostering of a common vision; but divided we fall.

Bill
Oct 21, 2009
12:11 pm
Re: Gambling at the Greenbrier

In a perfect world we do. Remember the private prison proposal for Denmar? Norman Alderman whipped up a frenzy of support for that one. It wasn't defeated because rational citizens protested. It was defeated because the promoters turned out to be crooks and because we don't have the infrastructure to support it.. And the coal fired power plant Walt Helmick wanted built in The Little Levels so he could sell coal to it. That was defeated because the Greenbriar didn't have enough water to cool it, not because those of us living in the area didn't want it.
As far as gambling at Snowshoe goes, are there ant ski resorts in this country outside Nevada that have gambling? If there are I haven't heard of any. That tells me gambling and ski resorts aren't very compatible.

Bill

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